Removal of problematic required and recommended schema attributes #450
Comments
|
Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
>
> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library
> schemas use them.
>
> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you
> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must be in
> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't
> currently called on to do so).
>
> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short
> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2 validator.
>
> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which is
> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
>
> *Proposal*:
>
> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
>
> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity.
> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function at
> annotation time with respect to tools.
>
> @dungscout96
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$>
> @smakeig
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$>
> @tpatpa
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$>
> @IanCa
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$>
> @happy5214
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$>
>
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--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
|
|
Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that isn't
the definition we are using here.
However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in adding
anything. We need to discuss.
Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.
Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids and
BIDS is silent.
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
sign of that.
Kay
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in form?
Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> KAy -
>
> A few schema 8.1 questions:
>
> How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
>
> What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
>
> Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
>
> What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
> 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
>
> Why does 'Gender' have no children?
>
> Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
>
>
>
> Scott
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
>
>> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
>>
>> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
>> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library
>> schemas use them.
>>
>> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you
>> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
>> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must
be in
>> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
>> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't
>> currently called on to do so).
>>
>> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short
>> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
>> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
>> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
validator.
>>
>> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
>> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which is
>> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
>>
>> *Proposal*:
>>
>> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
>> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
>> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
>>
>> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
>> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
>> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity.
>> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function at
>> annotation time with respect to tools.
>>
>> @dungscout96
>> <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
>
>> @smakeig
>> <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$
>
>> @tpatpa
>> <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$
>
>> @IanCa
>> <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$
>
>> @happy5214
>> <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$
>
>>
>> —
>> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
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>> .
>> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
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>
>
> --
> Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
> California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
>
--
Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
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See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that isn't
the definition we are using here.
I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...
However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It can
only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely necessary.
That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are in
the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in adding
anything. We need to discuss.
I understand this.
Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?
>Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.
So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
> How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of finite
duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix and
condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
finalize this sometime.
> I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
in the analysis that HED should support...
Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
Yes, good.
> Why does 'Gender' have no children?
I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids and
BIDS is silent.
I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type and
'Gender' to self-image?
If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...
> Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the
third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
sign of that.
Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
… But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown', etc. ?
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
>
> The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
form?
>
> Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>
> > KAy -
> >
> > A few schema 8.1 questions:
> >
> > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> >
> > What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
> >
> > Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> >
> > What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
> > 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
> >
> > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> >
> > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> >
> >> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
> >>
> >> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
> >> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
library
> >> schemas use them.
> >>
> >> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If
you
> >> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
> >> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must
> be in
> >> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
> >> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
aren't
> >> currently called on to do so).
> >>
> >> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no
short
> >> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
> >> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
> >> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
> validator.
> >>
> >> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
> >> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which
is
> >> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
> >>
> >> *Proposal*:
> >>
> >> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
> >> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
> >> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
> >>
> >> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
> >> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
> >> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
complexity.
> >> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function
at
> >> annotation time with respect to tools.
> >>
> >> @dungscout96
> >> <
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
> >
> >> @smakeig
> >> <
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$
> >
> >> @tpatpa
> >> <
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$
> >
> >> @IanCa
> >> <
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$
> >
> >> @happy5214
> >> <
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$
> >
> >>
> >> —
> >> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> >> <
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> >,
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> >
> >> .
> >> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
> >> ***@***.***>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
> of
> > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
> California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
>
> —
> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> <
#450 (comment)>
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--
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Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559, http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
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So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a value.
# is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
See > comments below. -Scott
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
> pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that isn't
> the definition we are using here.
>
> I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...
> However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It can
> only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
necessary.
> That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are in
> the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in adding
> anything. We need to discuss.
>
I understand this.
>
> Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
>
> But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be the
child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?
>
> >Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.
>
> So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
>
> > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
> user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
> from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of finite
> duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
> released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix
and
> condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
> finalize this sometime.
>
> > I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss the
meanings/uses for 'event context'
> in the analysis that HED should support...
> Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
> distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
> Yes, good.
>
> > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids and
> BIDS is silent.
>
> I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type and
'Gender' to self-image?
> If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...
>
> > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the
> third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
> sign of that.
>
> Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
> It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for some
reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
> But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown', etc.
?
>
> Kay
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>
> > Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
> >
> > The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
> form?
> >
> > Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> >
> > > KAy -
> > >
> > > A few schema 8.1 questions:
> > >
> > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> > >
> > > What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
> > >
> > > Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> > >
> > > What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
> > > 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
> > >
> > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> > >
> > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >
> > >> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
> > >>
> > >> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended
and
> > >> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
> library
> > >> schemas use them.
> > >>
> > >> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If
> you
> > >> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it
can't
> > >> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children
must
> > be in
> > >> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
> > >> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
> aren't
> > >> currently called on to do so).
> > >>
> > >> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no
> short
> > >> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
> > >> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
> > >> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
> > validator.
> > >>
> > >> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the
same
> > >> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which
> is
> > >> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
> > >>
> > >> *Proposal*:
> > >>
> > >> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
regardless
> > >> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
> > >> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
> > >>
> > >> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such
as
> > >> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
> > >> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
> complexity.
> > >> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
function
> at
> > >> annotation time with respect to tools.
> > >>
> > >> @dungscout96
> > >> <
> >
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
> > >
> > >> @smakeig
> > >> <
> >
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$
> > >
> > >> @tpatpa
> > >> <
> >
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$
> > >
> > >> @IanCa
> > >> <
> >
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/IanCa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGdlJGflc$
> > >
> > >> @happy5214
> > >> <
> >
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$
> > >
> > >>
> > >> —
> > >> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > >> <
> >
>
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> > >
> > >> .
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> University
> > of
> > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
University
> of
> > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >
> > —
> > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > <
>
#450 (comment)
>
> <
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... or 'Event/EID/#' (for orthogonality
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
>
> No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
> Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
> value.
>
> # is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
> substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
>
> Thanks,
> Kay
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>
> > See > comments below. -Scott
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> >
> > > Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
> > > pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
> isn't
> > > the definition we are using here.
> > >
> > > I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...
> >
> >
> > > However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It
> can
> > > only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
> > necessary.
> > > That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are
> in
> > > the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
> adding
> > > anything. We need to discuss.
> > >
> > I understand this.
> >
> > >
> > > Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
> > >
> > > But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be
> the
> > child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?
> >
> > >
> > > >Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> > > This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.
> > >
> >
> > > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
> >
> > >
> > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> > > Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
> > > user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
> > > from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
> finite
> > > duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
> > > released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix
> > and
> > > condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
> > > finalize this sometime.
> > >
> > > > I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss
> the
> > meanings/uses for 'event context'
> > > in the analysis that HED should support...
> >
> >
> > > Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
> > > distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
> >
> > > Yes, good.
> >
> > >
> > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> > > I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids
> and
> > > BIDS is silent.
> > >
> > > I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type
> and
> > 'Gender' to self-image?
> > > If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
> > children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...
> >
> > >
> > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> > > Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put
> the
> > > third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
> > > sign of that.
> > >
> > > Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
> > > It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for
> some
> > reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
> > > But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown',
> etc.
> > ?
> >
> > >
> > > Kay
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
> > > >
> > > > The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
> > > form?
> > > >
> > > > Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > KAy -
> > > > >
> > > > > A few schema 8.1 questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
> > > > > 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
> > > > >
> > > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> > > > >
> > > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
> recommended
> > and
> > > > >> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
> > > library
> > > > >> schemas use them.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED
> 3. If
> > > you
> > > > >> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it
> > can't
> > > > >> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children
> > must
> > > > be in
> > > > >> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
> > > > >> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
> > > aren't
> > > > >> currently called on to do so).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is
> no
> > > short
> > > > >> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
> > > > >> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
> > > > >> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
> > > > validator.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the
> > same
> > > > >> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node,
> which
> > > is
> > > > >> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> *Proposal*:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
> > regardless
> > > > >> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
> > > > >> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons
> such
> > as
> > > > >> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
> implement
> > > > >> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
> > > complexity.
> > > > >> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
> > function
> > > at
> > > > >> annotation time with respect to tools.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> @dungscout96
> > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
> > > > >
> > > > >> @smakeig
> > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/smakeig__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGXV46uvo$
> > > > >
> > > > >> @tpatpa
> > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/tpatpa__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGelJymoX$
> > > > >
> > > > >> @IanCa
> > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > >
> > > > >> @happy5214
> > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/happy5214__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGfBuRQ6V$
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> —
> > > > >> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/hed-standard/hed-specification/issues/450__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGe-5jOh4$
> > > > >,
> > > > >> or unsubscribe
> > > > >> <
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > >
> > > > >> .
> > > > >> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
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> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> > > University
> > > > of
> > > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> > University
> > > of
> > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> > > >
> > > > —
> > > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > > > <
> > >
> >
> #450 (comment)
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> > --
> > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> University of
> > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >
> > —
> > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > <
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Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of
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Sorry,
Event is used. ID is not an Event. We have an ID and Label tags under
Informational-property
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:00 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
... or 'Event/EID/#' (for orthogonality
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
>
>> > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
>>
>> No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
>> Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
>> value.
>>
>> # is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
>> substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kay
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>>
>> > See > comments below. -Scott
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block
of
>> > > pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
>> isn't
>> > > the definition we are using here.
>> > >
>> > > I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...
>> >
>> >
>> > > However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It
>> can
>> > > only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
>> > necessary.
>> > > That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that
are
>> in
>> > > the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
>> adding
>> > > anything. We need to discuss.
>> > >
>> > I understand this.
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
>> > >
>> > > But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be
>> the
>> > child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?
>> >
>> > >
>> > > >Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
>> > > This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other
children.
>> > >
>> >
>> > > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
>> >
>> > >
>> > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
>> > > Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by
the
>> > > user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish
it
>> > > from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
>> finite
>> > > duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we
haven't
>> > > released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design
matrix
>> > and
>> > > condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
>> > > finalize this sometime.
>> > >
>> > > > I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss
>> the
>> > meanings/uses for 'event context'
>> > > in the analysis that HED should support...
>> >
>> >
>> > > Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
>> > > distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
>> >
>> > > Yes, good.
>> >
>> > >
>> > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
>> > > I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is
fluids
>> and
>> > > BIDS is silent.
>> > >
>> > > I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type
>> and
>> > 'Gender' to self-image?
>> > > If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to
becoming
>> > children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...
>> >
>> > >
>> > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
>> > > Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put
>> the
>> > > third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is
no
>> > > sign of that.
>> > >
>> > > Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
>> > > It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for
>> some
>> > reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
>> > > But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown',
>> etc.
>> > ?
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Kay
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
>> > > >
>> > > > The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference
in
>> > > form?
>> > > >
>> > > > Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case,
'Task-block' ?
>> > > >
>> > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > KAy -
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A few schema 8.1 questions:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
>> > > > >
>> > > > > What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
>> > > > > 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to
me)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Scott
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
>> recommended
>> > and
>> > > > >> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
>> > > library
>> > > > >> schemas use them.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED
>> 3. If
>> > > you
>> > > > >> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that
it
>> > can't
>> > > > >> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its
children
>> > must
>> > > > be in
>> > > > >> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the
JavaScript
>> > > > >> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily
they
>> > > aren't
>> > > > >> currently called on to do so).
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is
>> no
>> > > short
>> > > > >> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
>> > > > >> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
>> > > > >> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the
HED2
>> > > > validator.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of
the
>> > same
>> > > > >> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node,
>> which
>> > > is
>> > > > >> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> *Proposal*:
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
>> > regardless
>> > > > >> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
>> > > > >> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons
>> such
>> > as
>> > > > >> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
>> implement
>> > > > >> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
>> > > complexity.
>> > > > >> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
>> > function
>> > > at
>> > > > >> annotation time with respect to tools.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> @dungscout96
>> > > > >> <
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> @smakeig
>> > > > >> <
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
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>> > > > >
>> > > > >> @tpatpa
>> > > > >> <
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
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>> > > > >
>> > > > >> @IanCa
>> > > > >> <
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
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>> > > > >
>> > > > >> @happy5214
>> > > > >> <
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
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>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
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>> > > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
>> > > University
>> > > > of
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>> > > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
>> > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
>> > University
>> > > of
>> > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
>> > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
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>> > >
>> >
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http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
>
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Then '(Event, ID/#)' ?
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 4:28 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
Sorry,
Event is used. ID is not an Event. We have an ID and Label tags under
Informational-property
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:00 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> ... or 'Event/EID/#' (for orthogonality
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>
> > Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> >
> >> > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
> >>
> >> No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
> >> Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
> >> value.
> >>
> >> # is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
> >> substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Kay
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> >>
> >> > See > comments below. -Scott
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The
block
> of
> >> > > pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
> >> isn't
> >> > > the definition we are using here.
> >> > >
> >> > > I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed.
It
> >> can
> >> > > only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
> >> > necessary.
> >> > > That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that
> are
> >> in
> >> > > the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
> >> adding
> >> > > anything. We need to discuss.
> >> > >
> >> > I understand this.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
> >> > >
> >> > > But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this
be
> >> the
> >> > child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > >Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> >> > > This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other
> children.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> >> > > Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by
> the
> >> > > user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to
distinguish
> it
> >> > > from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
> >> finite
> >> > > duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we
> haven't
> >> > > released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design
> matrix
> >> > and
> >> > > condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have
to
> >> > > finalize this sometime.
> >> > >
> >> > > > I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to
discuss
> >> the
> >> > meanings/uses for 'event context'
> >> > > in the analysis that HED should support...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but
the
> >> > > distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
> >> >
> >> > > Yes, good.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> >> > > I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is
> fluids
> >> and
> >> > > BIDS is silent.
> >> > >
> >> > > I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body
type
> >> and
> >> > 'Gender' to self-image?
> >> > > If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to
> becoming
> >> > children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> >> > > Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would
put
> >> the
> >> > > third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there
is
> no
> >> > > sign of that.
> >> > >
> >> > > Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
> >> > > It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which
for
> >> some
> >> > reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
> >> > > But, following this logic, should we then add
'Handedness-unknown',
> >> etc.
> >> > ?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > Kay
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the
difference
> in
> >> > > form?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case,
> 'Task-block' ?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > KAy -
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > A few schema 8.1 questions:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
> >> > > > > 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to
> me)
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Scott
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
> >> recommended
> >> > and
> >> > > > >> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas
or
> >> > > library
> >> > > > >> schemas use them.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in
HED
> >> 3. If
> >> > > you
> >> > > > >> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that
> it
> >> > can't
> >> > > > >> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its
> children
> >> > must
> >> > > > be in
> >> > > > >> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the
> JavaScript
> >> > > > >> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily
> they
> >> > > aren't
> >> > > > >> currently called on to do so).
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there
is
> >> no
> >> > > short
> >> > > > >> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
> >> > > > >> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to
be
> >> > > > >> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the
> HED2
> >> > > > validator.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of
> the
> >> > same
> >> > > > >> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context
node,
> >> which
> >> > > is
> >> > > > >> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> *Proposal*:
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
> >> > regardless
> >> > > > >> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be
extended.
> >> > > > >> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons
> >> such
> >> > as
> >> > > > >> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
> >> implement
> >> > > > >> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
> >> > > complexity.
> >> > > > >> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
> >> > function
> >> > > at
> >> > > > >> annotation time with respect to tools.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> @dungscout96
> >> > > > >> <
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dungscout96__;!!Mih3wA!HsTxrrKL2-Y74bVq0WEDQ_GrdM86w5bg3M9TrzP0NnCk0izMHXrMOdlSIBQNBxorVNGtoyxDEyGD6e1GGQFKmyrU$
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> @smakeig
> >> > > > >> <
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> @tpatpa
> >> > > > >> <
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> @IanCa
> >> > > > >> <
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> @happy5214
> >> > > > >> <
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> —
> >> > > > >> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> >> > > > >> <
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > > > >> or unsubscribe
> >> > > > >> <
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> .
> >> > > > >> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
> >> > > > >> ***@***.***>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --
> >> > > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center
for
> >> > > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> >> > > University
> >> > > > of
> >> > > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> >> > > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> >> > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> >> > University
> >> > > of
> >> > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> >> > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >> > > >
> >> > > > —
> >> > > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> >> > > > <
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> <
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> >
> >> > >
> >> > > <
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > >
> >> > > ,
> >> > > > or unsubscribe
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> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >
> >> > >
> >> > > <
> >> >
> >>
>
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> >> > >
> >> > > > .
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> >> > >
> >> > > —
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> >> >
> >>
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> >> > > or unsubscribe
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> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> >> > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> >> University of
> >> > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> >> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >> >
> >> > —
> >> > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> >> > <
> >>
>
#450 (comment)
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> >
> >> <
>
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University
> of
> > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >
>
>
> --
> Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
> California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
>
> —
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|
BIDS lists options for Male, Female, Other or n/a (not recorded) in the participants.tsv: |
|
Yes
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:30 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
Then '(Event, ID/#)' ?
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 4:28 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> Sorry,
> Event is used. ID is not an Event. We have an ID and Label tags under
> Informational-property
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:00 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
>
> > ... or 'Event/EID/#' (for orthogonality
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >
> > >> > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
> > >>
> > >> No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
> > >> Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a
> > >> value.
> > >>
> > >> # is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
> > >> substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Kay
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > See > comments below. -Scott
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The
> block
> > of
> > >> > > pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately
that
> > >> isn't
> > >> > > the definition we are using here.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed.
> It
> > >> can
> > >> > > only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
> > >> > necessary.
> > >> > > That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits
that
> > are
> > >> in
> > >> > > the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care
in
> > >> adding
> > >> > > anything. We need to discuss.
> > >> > >
> > >> > I understand this.
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this
> be
> > >> the
> > >> > child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> > >> > > This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other
> > children.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> > >> > > Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in
by
> > the
> > >> > > user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to
> distinguish
> > it
> > >> > > from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events
of
> > >> finite
> > >> > > duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we
> > haven't
> > >> > > released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design
> > matrix
> > >> > and
> > >> > > condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have
> to
> > >> > > finalize this sometime.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to
> discuss
> > >> the
> > >> > meanings/uses for 'event context'
> > >> > > in the analysis that HED should support...
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but
> the
> > >> > > distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
> > >> >
> > >> > > Yes, good.
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> > >> > > I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is
> > fluids
> > >> and
> > >> > > BIDS is silent.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body
> type
> > >> and
> > >> > 'Gender' to self-image?
> > >> > > If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to
> > becoming
> > >> > children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> > >> > > Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would
> put
> > >> the
> > >> > > third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there
> is
> > no
> > >> > > sign of that.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
> > >> > > It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which
> for
> > >> some
> > >> > reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
> > >> > > But, following this logic, should we then add
> 'Handedness-unknown',
> > >> etc.
> > >> > ?
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Kay
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the
> difference
> > in
> > >> > > form?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case,
> > 'Task-block' ?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***>
wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > KAy -
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > A few schema 8.1 questions:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
> > >> > > > > 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear
to
> > me)
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Scott
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
> > >> recommended
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > >> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3
schemas
> or
> > >> > > library
> > >> > > > >> schemas use them.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in
> HED
> > >> 3. If
> > >> > > you
> > >> > > > >> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean
that
> > it
> > >> > can't
> > >> > > > >> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its
> > children
> > >> > must
> > >> > > > be in
> > >> > > > >> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the
> > JavaScript
> > >> > > > >> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily
> > they
> > >> > > aren't
> > >> > > > >> currently called on to do so).
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because
there
> is
> > >> no
> > >> > > short
> > >> > > > >> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same
way.
> > >> > > > >> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off
to
> be
> > >> > > > >> independent and both validators handle them correctly in
the
> > HED2
> > >> > > > validator.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some
of
> > the
> > >> > same
> > >> > > > >> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context
> node,
> > >> which
> > >> > > is
> > >> > > > >> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> *Proposal*:
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
> > >> > regardless
> > >> > > > >> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be
> extended.
> > >> > > > >> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema
attributes.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> The first proposal will allow us to define special
singletons
> > >> such
> > >> > as
> > >> > > > >> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
> > >> implement
> > >> > > > >> something that is not currently used and will cause
unneeded
> > >> > > complexity.
> > >> > > > >> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the
same
> > >> > function
> > >> > > at
> > >> > > > >> annotation time with respect to tools.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> @dungscout96
> > >> > > > >> <
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
>
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> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >> @smakeig
> > >> > > > >> <
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
>
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> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >> @tpatpa
> > >> > > > >> <
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
>
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> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >> @IanCa
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> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
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> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >> @happy5214
> > >> > > > >> <
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
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> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > --
> > >> > > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center
> for
> > >> > > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural
Computation,
> > >> > > University
> > >> > > > of
> > >> > > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > >> > > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > --
> > >> > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center
for
> > >> > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> > >> > University
> > >> > > of
> > >> > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > >> > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > —
> > >> > > > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> > >> > > > <
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
>
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> > >>
> >
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> > >> > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> > >> University of
> > >> > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > >> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> > >> >
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> University
> > of
> > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
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> of
> > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >
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Oh, sorry (proofreading...) I meant 'Event/ID/#' !
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 3:07 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
No. # refers to a value. You could have Event/IC/Occiptal-IC here
Occiptal-IC is-a IC (not an event though). Its a tag extension not a value.
# is a value and not treated as is-a. It acts as a placeholder for
substituting in values for example from a column in an events table.
Thanks,
Kay
On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:48 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> See > comments below. -Scott
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
>
> > Textblock is a word in the dictionary with a definition. (The block of
> > pages making up a book, excluding the binding.) Unfortunately that
isn't
> > the definition we are using here.
> >
> > I was wondering why not 'Text-block ...
>
>
> > However, once it is in the schema, a tag name cannot be changed. It can
> > only be deprecated --- which we want to avoid unless absolutely
> necessary.
> > That is why we are going to have to live with the minor nits that are
in
> > the schema currently. Going forward, we need to take great care in
adding
> > anything. We need to discuss.
> >
> I understand this.
>
> >
> > Time-block is to identify experimental time blocks.
> >
> > But the foremost/only use I know is as 'Task-block' - can't this be the
> child of 'Time-block' (other nartral children may appear)?
>
> >
> > >Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> > This is not possible. A tag cannot have a # child and other children.
> >
>
> > So then, 'Event/IC/#' ??
>
> >
> > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> > Event-context is a special tag which is not meant to be put in by the
> > user. It is used to hold the expanded event context (to distinguish it
> > from the actual events). Right now it is used to expand events of
finite
> > duration for the events between the onset and offset. Since we haven't
> > released the tools yet this is still a little fluid. The design matrix
> and
> > condition variable vectors use it this way. We are going to have to
> > finalize this sometime.
> >
> > > I see - but details are important here, as we have yet to discuss the
> meanings/uses for 'event context'
> > in the analysis that HED should support...
>
>
> > Controller agents are meant to be more hardware controllers, but the
> > distinction is somewhat vague. I'll propose something clearer.
>
> > Yes, good.
>
> >
> > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> > I have no idea what to use under Gender --- the terminology is fluids
and
> > BIDS is silent.
> >
> > I think I understand that in current use, 'Sex' refers to body type and
> 'Gender' to self-image?
> > If so, then both might have the same children, and migrate to becoming
> children of (? Reproductive identity ?) ...
>
> >
> > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> > Yes, but BIDS only has Male and Female. I was hoping they would put the
> > third option in and then we could use the same one. So far there is no
> > sign of that.
> >
> > Does BIDS have an 'Intersex' ?
> > It seems to me 'Sex-unknown' would be of use in studies in which for
some
> reason the Sex of one participant was not recorded.
> > But, following this logic, should we then add 'Handedness-unknown',
etc.
> ?
>
> >
> > Kay
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 12:14 PM smakeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> >
> > > Kay - I sent my questions msg just now too early by error...
> > >
> > > The schema has 'textblock' and 'Time-block' -- why the difference in
> > form?
> > >
> > > Why 'Time-block' and not its clear/foremost use case, 'Task-block' ?
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 1:10 PM Scott Makeig ***@***.***> wrote:
> > >
> > > > KAy -
> > > >
> > > > A few schema 8.1 questions:
> > > >
> > > > How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
> > > >
> > > > What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
> > > >
> > > > Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
> > > >
> > > > What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
> > > > 'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
> > > >
> > > > Why does 'Gender' have no children?
> > > >
> > > > Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
> > > >>
> > > >> I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended
> and
> > > >> required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or
> > library
> > > >> schemas use them.
> > > >>
> > > >> They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3.
If
> > you
> > > >> put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it
> can't
> > > >> have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children
> must
> > > be in
> > > >> the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
> > > >> validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they
> > aren't
> > > >> currently called on to do so).
> > > >>
> > > >> These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no
> > short
> > > >> form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
> > > >> On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
> > > >> independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2
> > > validator.
> > > >>
> > > >> There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the
> same
> > > >> issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node,
which
> > is
> > > >> a special case and is an end node at the current time.
> > > >>
> > > >> *Proposal*:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that
> regardless
> > > >> of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
> > > >> 2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
> > > >>
> > > >> The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such
> as
> > > >> Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to
implement
> > > >> something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded
> > complexity.
> > > >> The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same
> function
> > at
> > > >> annotation time with respect to tools.
> > > >>
> > > >> @dungscout96
> > > >> <
> > >
> >
>
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> > > >
> > > >> @smakeig
> > > >> <
> > >
> >
>
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> > > >
> > > >> @tpatpa
> > > >> <
> > >
> >
>
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> > > >
> > > >> @IanCa
> > > >> <
> > >
> >
>
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> > > >
> > > >> @happy5214
> > > >> <
> > >
> >
>
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> > University
> > > of
> > > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> University
> > of
> > > California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
> > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
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> --
> Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University
of
> California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0559,
http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
>
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|
|
KAy -
A few schema 8.1 questions:
How/when are you using 'Event-context' ?
What is the use of 'Time-block'/# ?
Why not simply specify 'Event/#' ??
What is the intended difference between 'Software-agent' and
'Controller-agent'? (the definitions do not make that clear to me)
Why does 'Gender' have no children?
Should 'Sex' not have a child 'Sex-unknown' ?
Scott
…On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 8:50 AM VisLab ***@***.***> wrote:
We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes recommended and
required from the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library
schemas use them.
They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you
put required on a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't
have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must be in
the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript
validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't
currently called on to do so).
These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short
form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be
independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2 validator.
There is one other schema attribute, unique that has some of the same
issues. This attribute is only used in the Event-context node, which is a
special case and is an end node at the current time.
*Proposal*:
1. We add the noExtension schema attribute which says that regardless
of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.
2. We remove the required and recommended schema attributes.
The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement
something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity.
The suggestedTag and relatedTag can provide much of the same function at
annotation time with respect to tools.
@dungscout96
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@smakeig
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@tpatpa
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@IanCa
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@happy5214
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Sorry @smakeig
The
This is clarified in the new description in HED 8.3.0. See hed-schemas PR#156
Because of orthogonality: |
These are being removed in HED schema version 8.3.0 hed-schemas PR#156 |
|
Resolved with release of standard schema 8.3.0. |
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We are moving towards releasing HED 8.2.0.
I would like to propose removing the schema attributes
recommendedandrequiredfrom the schema. None of the released HED 3 schemas or library schemas use them.They are problematic, because their meaning isn't clear in HED 3. If you put
requiredon a tag node in the schema, does that mean that it can't have any children or does it mean that it or one of its children must be in the event-level tag string? Neither the Python nor the JavaScript validators really handle these in a consistent way (luckily they aren't currently called on to do so).These attributes aren't as problematic in HED2 because there is no short form and schema attributes aren't inherited in the same way.
On both platforms, the HED2 validation has been split off to be independent and both validators handle them correctly in the HED2 validator.
There is one other schema attribute,
uniquethat has some of the same issues. This attribute is only used in theEvent-contextnode, which is a special case and is an end node at the current time.Proposal:
noExtensionschema attribute which says that regardless of whether its parent allows extension, it cannot be extended.requiredandrecommendedschema attributes.The first proposal will allow us to define special singletons such as
Event-context. The second removes the problem of trying to implement something that is not currently used and will cause unneeded complexity. ThesuggestedTagandrelatedTagcan provide much of the same function at annotation time with respect to tools.@dungscout96 @smakeig @tpatpa @IanCa @happy5214
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