Saxon Deities

[ghost]

So that we can add some more flavour, here's a small list of the Saxon Deities.

-Bealdor: God of Light. A son of Woden and Frige. His legend says that his mother asked everything in the world not to kill him, but she forgot to ask mistletoe. While the other Gods were throwing things at him and laughing as they bounced off, as he was impervious, Loki fashioned a spear out of mistletoe wood. He gave it to Bealdor’s blind brother, who threw it at Bealdor, killing him. He later went to Hell and met Hel.
-Ēostre: Goddess of Spring and Rebirth. She is closely linked to the Moon God. Her familiar was the hare and her symbol the egg (this is why the Easter Rabbit has eggs)
-Hretha: Goddess of Fame and War. A separate Male and Female God(dess) of War is sometimes used as an argument for shieldmaidens having fought with the Saxon men.
-Tiw: God of War, Combat and the Sky. Lost his hand in an amusing story involving a giant wolf, a few dwarves and a ukrainian transvestite. Rather ironically his familiar is the wolf.
-Wade: God of the Sea (or the Whale-Road as it is known in OE) and Sea-Battles. Father of Wayland and Egil.
-Wayland: God of Metalworking. He has a broken leg and supports himself using a crutch. His sibling is Egil, it is unclear whether Egil was a God in his own right or more like an assistant to Wayland.
-Ing: God of Fertility. Swords (a symbol of fertility, perhaps because of their mildly phallic shape) were offered to him by being bent, perhaps at the shrine I mention below. He was also King of the Elves. His familiar was the boar, which he rode (his sister too, sometimes. The boar, not him). He is usually portrayed somewhat well-endowed, especially in Saxon idols.
-Frēo: Goddess of Love. Sister of Ing. Her familiars are the cat and the boar. She rides a chariot driven by cats. Her cloak was made of magic falcon feathers. Her necklace Brisingamen is mentioned in Beowulf.
-Woden: Chieftain of the Gods. Has an eye missing. His familiars are crows ands wolves: he has two wolves Geki and Fleki and two crows Hunnin and Munnin. His sacred weapon is the spear.
-Frige: Goddess of Home, the Harvest, possibly an embodiment of Earth. Wife of Woden. Her familiars were the Stork and the Spinning Wheel.
-Thunor: God of Thunder. Son of Wotan and Frige. Drives a chariot pulled by Goats. His familiar is the Goat. Rather ironically, the Saxons worshipped the Oak tree because it was thought Thunor planted them to protect German believers from his thunder. Really, of course, Trees are basically huge bullseyes saying “shoot me, lightning”. His sacred weapon is the hammer.
-Loki: The God of Cunning and Deceit. The trickster. Christians thought he was Satan.
-Hel: Goddess of Death. Ruler of the After-Life and daughter of Loki. She later was used by the Christians in naming their underworld.
-Seaxnaet: God of the Family and Tribe. Little is known about him.
-Moon and Sun: Nothing is known about these Deities, except from a few brooches including them with the other Gods. There are also Hot Cross Buns, which had a quarter pattern on them like the moon and were sacrificed in the month of Solmonath along with other God-shaped and Familiar-shaped buns.

A few suggestions:

-Sacrifice a sword to Ing (++ fertility modifier)
-People born with one of the God's stigmata (someone born blind like Woden, or without a hand like Tiw, or a cripple like Wayland) could get a bonus modifier with religious officials.

Combined with the "Joan of Arc" event, I though it could be quite interesting to have something similar with the Saxons. The only Saxon female warrior from the migration period we know of is "Edlfled" (Aethelflaed) mentioned in the Welsh poem Pa Gur y Porthaur.

[loup99]

Thank you for this list!

[ghost]

No problem.

[TurtleShroom]

I am very impressed by this list, dude.

Are you planning to write a heresy for the Germanics, or to give the Saxons their own religon? Is this connected to the Wodenic religion that's still in the code? I've seen placed several times as holy sites and it has its own icon. I will happily add the stigmata Trait for you once this gets going.

[ghost]

This is "Wodenism" (I don't recommend using that term, it's mainly used by Germanic and Scandinavian Neo-Nazis), the religion of the Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes. There wasn't really any heresy because of the loose nature of the religion. In early Paganism it seems Thunor had pre-eminence amongst them, and it shifted to Woden when the religion became more and more banned.

One thing I'm disappointed that the Age of Charlemagne DLC didn't include is Frankish paganism. It was a problem in the time of Charlemagne, and a HUGE problem in the time of Clovis. Clovis as a newly converted Christian had to regularily deal with people who still worshipped the "old gods", their favourites being Nerthus (a lesbian Goddess who married her sister, not something the Christians were thrilled with) and Donar (their Thunor/Thor).

Saxons prioritised bees a lot, since they had no sugar and relied only on honey as a sweetener (and to brew sweet alcohols, though sometimes they just drank the fermented honey itself, which was called mead). Bee-keeping was basically a universal hobby for everyone and every single settlement would have one. I feel like this should play out in events somehow.
They also hosted very violent sporting events, like racing and swimming, which often could result in death.

Their holy sites were open-air, usually groves or natural wonders. The Irminsul was a religious symbol that they liked, which was a big tree trunk.

[ghost]

And touching on Homosexuality, Early Saxons opposed it from their values' point of view and not a Christian one. They saw just being homosexual fine, but being the dominated one in a homosexual relationship or in any way weak or effeminate AND homosexual to be bad.

So I suggest that:
-men who are homosexual and have weak or effeminate traits or a low martial suffer penalties
-men who are homosexual and have no weak or effeminate traits nor a low martial don't suffer penalties (except to fertility)

Women were already "effeminate" and a lot of them "weak", so they shouldn't suffer any penalties barring fertility.

What do you think?

[TurtleShroom]

That is so cool! I have taught myself Triggered Modifiers and will eventually teach myself the Event Modifiers to replace them, so this is something that is totally up my ally. I can order Modifiers for Wodenic characters that are Homosexual and meet your requirements.

Yes, there is already a Wodenic religion in the Mod, with its own icon and Holy Sites.

I think that, for the purposes of the game, that it should be in the same "family" as the Germanic and Norse religions. If any one of those three religions gets Reformed, the other two become hereies of the other!
(This is very easy to code! Simply use the "SET_PARENT" protocol that is Triggered when the head of one of the religions comes into existence.)

In addition, I found a website maintained by a historian who is very excited and enthusiastic about "Anglo-Heathenism", covering the Angles instead of the Anglo-Saxxons.

Wodenism is the regional name of Northern European Heathenism in England & the UK.
Wodenism is the most specific modern English name for Northern European Heathenism (NEH) in all Anglo-descended, English speaking countries. By using the term "Wodenist" we clearly indicate that we are referring to the English form of Heathenism, practitioners of Esetroth. Wodenism is the Northern European Heathen appreciation of the Wodenic pantheon, from the English perspective, best known of them are; Mona, Tiw, Woden, Thunor, Frige, Saetere, & Sunna. This is perhaps due to them giving their names to the days of the week that we still use in England, & the Anglo world today!

HOLY FASTING CRAP, I thought the names of the days of the week were named after the NORSE gods, not Wodenic gods!

[TurtleShroom]

Actually, Hell is not named after the Wodenic goddess (Hel).

Hell named after Gehenna, the sulphur-laced, flame-engulfed canyon in ancient Israel where human sacrifices to Molek were performed. It was always burning.

[ghost]

There is no God called "Saetere", the Saxons just kept calling it Saturnsday since it's what the Romans called it.

Hell is named after the Saxon Pagan goddess Hel. The word comes from Proto-Germanic haljō, it has nothing to do with Gehenna at all.

[loup99]

Concerning the suggested changes to religions, they are not going to happen unless a consensus is reached, and last time we didn't get far enough in finding a compromise. Anglo-Saxon Paganism will thus not be separate unless we separate all religions and remove Germanic.

[ghost]

What do you mean "Thunorism"? It's called Anglo-Saxon Paganism, Wodenism is a term used by neo-nazis and Thunorism doesn't exist. It's the same religion, the main God that was worshipped just changed.

[loup99]

Yes, I meant Anglo-Saxon Paganism, sorry. But it won't get a special status, as we settled with it being better to either have a Germanic religion or split it entirely.

[TurtleShroom]

Consensus is the absence of leadership.

@MaelgwnGwynedd - The code already has a bare bones system for Wodenic Pagans (that's the name it uses when I mouse over the Holy Sites). I will implement your deity list immediately. I will also see if I can get around to implementing your starting flavor suggestions once I teach myself how to use Evnet Modifiers.

[ghost]

Again, it's a badly anachronistic term (Visigoths is one for 300 AD, but this one is a thousand and a half years off), "Germanic Pagan" is fine and doesn't exclude the other important Gods, like Hel, who was the most feared.

[TurtleShroom]

Germanic Paganism is Norse Paganism before it splits. Your Saxon idea applies to the Jutes, Angles, and Saxons, not the rest of the cultures. Those would all be under their own heresy/religion.

In the code, "Wodenic" is the Localization for "WEST_PAGAN" in the Religious file. I'd suggest changing it to "SAXON_PAGAN" or "WODENIC_PAGAN" so that it isn't confused with "_ROOT__WEST_PAGAN".

[ghost]

Before it splits, what do you mean? The two religions are vastly different, though from a common source. Tiw is as similar to Tyr as he is to Zeus and as Zeus is to Jupiter. All four come from the prehistoric god Dewos Pater.

…

On 6 Dec 2016 00:06, "TURTLESHROOM" ***@***.***> wrote: Germanic Paganism is Norse Paganism before it splits. Your Saxon idea applies to the Jutes, Angles, and Saxons, not the rest of the cultures. Those would all be under their own heresy/religion. In the code, "Wodenic" is the Localization for "WEST_PAGAN" in the Religious file. I'd suggest changing it to "SAXON_PAGAN" or "WODENIC_PAGAN" so that it isn't confused with "_ROOT__WEST_PAGAN". — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#187 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AUTykWU-LpUMgfwDIGfdBWqSCF_pVLchks5rFJjqgaJpZM4LDoHy> .

[TurtleShroom]

I'm just reciting what the code says. Right now, there is code for a German/Norse Pagan Split, where (much like the Mend the Schism Event), certain Germanic Pagans become Norse, and others remain Germanic. I have played this Mod many times, but I have never seen it fire.

We will need overhauls in order for the Jutes to go Wodenic Pagan instead of remaining Germanic Pagan.

[TurtleShroom]

@MaelgwnGwynedd

Ah'ight, so I implemented all of the deity names you added into the existing Wodenic "WEST_PAGAN" religion. I also renamed "WEST_PAGAN" to "SAXON_PAGAN" for ease of understanding.

Once I learn Event Modifiers, I will program your requested Modifiers for homosexuality, injuries, and so on.
I'll even see if I can assign "SAXON_PAGAN" to the Saxons, Angles, and Jutes, as it should be.

[loup99]

The code says that all of the mentioned won't fire at the moment. As for consensus, there is one: no splits until further ado. No placeholder code inherited from past testing is meant to be used. As explained above, the West Pagan religion will not be used separately. I'm of course not going to decide what you do in your branch, Turtleshroom, but the decision for the main branch remains until we find a solution.

[TurtleShroom]

Consensus is the absence of leadership!

I'll hold off on changing the religions of the characters, but implementing my changes to the Wodenic Pagans should be done, so that if we do get around to implementing them (and we should), they will be ready.

Who exactly declared the Wodenic Pagan religion to be unimplemented? It is not "leftover code", it is unfinished code!

[loup99]

What absence of leadership? There is already a consensus adopted by the leadership by the way: no change, given that we didn't find a good way of replacing Germanic with other religions, and that it wouldn't be consistent with how we treat other religions. That has already been decided.

Wodenic Pagan is a disabled left-over, as much as the other material in the unused file and some left-overs in other files. For now we can remove it if it bothers you, as the name isn't even accurate.

[TurtleShroom]

The decision makes no sense.

1. The religuon is already there.

2. The deities are already there.

3. OP has already presented massive evidence of the uniqueness of the Jute, Saxon, and Angle religion.

4. It would be historically inaccurate not to implement this uniqueness.

5. Both are in the Pagan griuo, so intermarriage and interaction will not be a problem.

6. It gives something else for Saxons to do besides ROFL-stomp Britons.

7. Adding them to the Migration CB would take a single line of code ("religion = saxon_pagan").

8. The religious switch for the characters coukd be done in less than a hour.

9. I can do it all myself wuthout a problem.

10. OP deserves for his flavor to beimplemented.

11. Its localization was NOT in the unused section. It was in the RELIGIOUS section, which means it was still in the game.

These ideas are too good to pass up. We MUST get to implementing them Why are you so set against ot when the current setup is ahistorical, according to OP's evidence?

This is not an earth-shattering change. It's about as big as implementing the Borborites and Dacian Zalmoxinites, which doesn't effect the rest of the Mod while giving an immense boost to its specific demographic.

When presented with a chance to deepen the Mod's flavor based on real, exciting history, FASTING DO IT.

Holding on to this alleged universally agreed to refusal to implement the Saxon's unique faith is foolish. I am certain that whoever thought of it woukd not mind.!

[loup99]

Thank you for sharing your feedback. I will keep it in mind when adding flavour for the Saxon cultures and Germanic religion.

As it stands currently, these deities will be implement as Saxon culture flavour options for Germanic rulers.

[TurtleShroom]

The current system is ahistorical. Who are these mystery men whose "consensus" you consistently refer to when you keep blocking the ideas shared here by @MaelgwnGwynedd ?

The Religious File's deity list is hard-coded. You will not receive the unique, special deities playing as Saxons as opposed to other Germanics. They all use the same gods, which is ahistorical.

In my current Pull Request ( #198 ), I have this all set up and raring to go. However, I have not actually changed any provinces or existing religions. I just added the appropriate localization for the Saxon Pagan religion in the "RELIGIONS.TXT" and localization and left it as such.

[loup99]

As I have explained, there is a team which developes the mod. If we are to make drastic changes, it has to be discussed. There is no blocking, just a natural delay. When we continuously develop a modification for a while, changes have to be followed up, considered, weighted and compared. The mod is supposed to be coherent and balanced, not just assembled bits and pieces with no connection. I think it's unnecessary to put me in opposition to @MaelgwnGwynedd when I thanked him for the list above. All in all, a bit of patience is what is in question here, nothing more and nothing less.

[loup99]

Off-topic discussion removed to ensure that the discussion is recentred around the deities.