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Subject_ NOTES ON MEETING OF MAY 5, 194k

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e NOTES ON MEETING OF MAY 5, 194y  No._¥ of ,, copics, Series A,
v\ , ML
9:00 - 10:30 209--Eck

Preseat: Allison, Szilard, Wigner, Weinberg, Morrison, Creutz, Vernon,
Young, Watson, Ohlinger

Please note a correction in the notes of the last meeting, Friday,
April 28th. On page 2 at the top, the cost of the energy from TNI should read
$200.C0 per megawatt hour instead of ¥2.00,

Mr. Morrison started the discussion by noting the above correction
and adding, at the request of Mr., Wigner, a rough figure for the cost of ecuergy
obtained from tubealloy on a comparstive basis. Assuming a cost of §2.00 per
pound for tubeslloy and assuming that 211 the 25 is used, the cost of energy
(not mechanical power) would be sbhout §0.,02 per megawatt hour, Mr. Morrison
noted that the least expensive horsepower (based on first cost) for a prime
mover is an airplane engine, and the most expsnsive is the old fashioned steam
locomotive. Mr. Morrison also transmitted the following information from Mr.
Z. Jeffries., At the request of the WPB but with only limited resourcss, the
U.S. Geological Survey has been carrying on a research into the sbundance of

various materials found in pegmatites., Among the2 many materials to be sur-
veyed were tubsalloy and thorium. This survey is to be published in one or
two months and copies will undoubtedly be obtainad by the lagboratory. By word
of mouth, Mr. Jeffries did obtain the following advance information based on
the preliminary results, - a large number of granite bodies wers found to
cobain up to 100 ppm of tubealloy and a small number up to 1,000 ppmn.

kEr. OChlinger carried on the discussion from this point with a ro-
view of the outline appended to the notes for the last meeting. A general
discussion followed, of which the highlights follow.

Mr. Szilard pointed out that in our discussions we must not overlook
the peace time uses of this power. ile can only hold the advantage we have
obtained in our development of this process in America if its psace time use
is well developed. Following this vein of thought, Mr. Wigner sald that very
little has been said about this phase of the subject but that he had one or
two suggestions to offer. By subjecting the tubzalloy bearing granite men-~
tioned by Mr. Jeffries to a bombardment ol neutrons,; it might be possible to
obtain a mechanical dissclution or porosity such that nitric acid could readily
penetrate the granite to dissolve out rore tubealloy, Another possibility is
a polymerization of hydrocarbons to produce synthetic rubber.

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Mr. Allison suggested that in projects where the transporation of
fuel is a major problem, such as an exploration of the South Pole or othar
distant objectives, a small unit would be very vseful., He also repcated the
previous suggestion for heating entire cities since it would also eliminats
the terrific nuisance of the usual smokse pall.

Mr. Wigner observed that the age of technical problems is past.
((:} The only obvious needs are probably large scale heating and fuels. NMr. Szilard
folt that if $hzwo ora rna prosant reeds, then new n2ads shouiié;:,;;; f-d. QMr.

orei soed stelle wal . IVl 24
lrorrison suggesied steller travel ’55%€?ffiflfifif?4

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Nr. Ohlinger broughi the discussion back to the outline with the
suggestion that the subject of the direct utillzation of energy by electrical
removal (IBla in the outline) should be dismissed from owr thinking for ths
most part. He mentioned that little has been forthcoming on this subject
outside of the suggestions which accomnanied kKr. iigner's "homework!. One
of these suggestions was to usec the active materizl in the form of an extremely
thin wire surrounded by a2 metallic tube; with the interspaces evacuated. The
fission oroducts would assume a considerable charge before leaving the thin
wire and by virtue of their kinetic cnergy would he able to reach the tube sur-
rounding the wire even if it had a considerable pcsitive charge. For a reason-
able utilization, the potential difference between the tube and wire would have
to be of the order of magnitude of 5,000,000 volts and one could obtain a cur-
rent of about 50 amperes if the system were run at 500,000 kw. The wire and
pipe would have to be cooled and, although, this is; in a way, the most direct
utilization of the energy of fission, it obviously gets into great technical
difficulties, is not very efficient, and does not furnish the power in a very
suitable form, so it is noted only as a curiosity. The second suggestion was
Vr. R. ¥illiamsonts idea to extract the heat from a pile by using the Peltier
effect to convert the energy directly to electrical energy. However, the
thermo-electric constants of tubealloy are not known and one can estimate that
the amount of power obtainable from a pile like that at W would only be of the
order of 5,000 kw, One arrangement for accomplishing this would be to have
evory tubealloy rod be one electrods of the thermocouple and the graphite the
other, The pile would be run at low power level with reasonably good efficiency
despite the heating loss. Another arrangement would be to subdivide the tube-
alloy rod into short sections, cooling one end of each. The cooled end would
then form the.cold junction, the hot end, the hot junction, However, utiliza-
tion of power in such a system is much poorer. Kr. Szilard asked for the
efficiency of such a pile. MNr. Watson suggested that it would probably not
exceed 1f although Mr. Wigner was of the opinion that this figure was too low.
¥r, Szilard thought the subject could bear further investigation, but Nr. Wig-
ner pointed out that by high temperature operation (70Q°C) it is possible to
obtain efficiencics up to around 65% and so, as long as we would Just bs meking
kilowatt hours, we should sbandon all “crazy schemes” and think seriously about
high temperature operation. "Goldborgs" are not attractive for power production
and Mr. hLllison thought it would be much easier to develop the high temperature

operation.

Items IBlb (2) and (3) in which the working fluid absorbs the heat
of reaction for direct utiliczation of the energy offered more interesting pos-
sibilities according to Messrs. ¥igner, Morrison and Vernon. WMr. Wigner noted
one difficulty with the endothermic chemical reactions, - the gases which have
these reactions usually react chemically with the pile materials.

v, Sgilard stated that when thz supply of petroleum is exhsusted,
it mizht be possible to break down the CO molecule and hydrogenate the carbon
atom to make synthetic hydrocarbvons for gasoline, etc. MNr. Morrison suggested
an alternate of breaking down the H20 molecule and carbonizing the hydrogen atom.

ur. oOhlinger suggested that in order to speed up the discussions at
these meetinss and avoid wastin: the time of the entire group with detoiled
discussions of schames which do nct hiold much promise for next year'!'s psogrm
of researcii work for the laberator;, assi‘nments shos§ v ot n.,fagndividual

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pile types for investipation and group discussion outside of the regular
meetings, The individual assigned any particular tLype would make it a point
to investigate the advantages and disadvantages of that type as thoroughly as
possible and discuss these and any design details with other members of the
group who would be likely to have constructive information on the subject.
Thereby, the problem would be well investigated prior to the meeting at which
it would either be presented in concise form for discussion as a likely pro-
blem for investigation, theoretically or experimentally or both, or else in-
dicated as &n unpromising project which should not be considered at this time.
Problems common to several designs could then be correlated for an experimental
program and the more promising of the designs brought forth by these investige-
tions outside of the regular scheduled meetings could be discussed by the group
as a whole before being turned over to the various divisions for their detailed
development. This proposed policy was accepted by all and the following
assignments made.

Mr. Wigner will lead the investigation into the possibility of power
producing piles utilizing the energy directly by endothermic chemical reactions
[Item IB1b (3)] . Mr. Vernon will do the same for gas cooling [Item IBlb (2)].

In order to give them time to prepare these assignments, it was suggested that

Mr. Young speak at the next meeting on Wednesday, May 10th on "Suggested Improve-
ments for a Hanford Type Pile" and on Friday, May l2un, ¥r. Weinberg on "Conversion
Units",

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