Replies: 3 comments 12 replies
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Thanks for bringing this up @Borda. We would really appreciate your help in bumping Python to minimum version 3.9. Please feel free to create pull requests. |
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Please no. Some of us still use 3.8 for foreseeable future. 🙏 |
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DO NOT WANT!!! Some of us are stuck on python 3.8. Systems that work perfectly fine have no need to upgrade their python system just because python devs can't be bothered to support it anymore. What does end of lifecycle even mean for python??? Not like it needs critical fixes much. Apple still ships with python 2.7 by default (3 also available but not default). How about nicegui requires the version of python with features it needs, instead of some arbitrary cutoff? If you want to recommend version 3.9+, sure. No problem. But don't break things that work just because you don't like a digit somewhere. The endless upgrade treadmill is the bane of modern computing. |
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@ed2050 Yikes, we get it that you have strong opinions on this topic but there's no need to be condescending is there? Your experiences and needs don't match mine (or others here obviously), personally I love some of the python updates since 3.8. I'm glad the team is working to move to 3.9 and beyond, in my opinion it will allow improvements in the code. |
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@8forty I was trying (and apparently failing) to be gentle. Sorry for coming across condescending. Text medium loses nuance. Differing opinions are fine. If I argue strongly, it's because I want to be clear since others don't see an issue. Hopefully I gave people a new perspective to consider. Cheers and happy new year. 🍻 |
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It'd be interesting to see NiceGUI on the new version where you can get past the GIL and have proper multithreading. I imagine it would be useful, but I don't know nearly enough about it to do much |
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Aye 😄 ... old enough that in 25 years of professional software development I learned that embracing new technologies and continuous care of the code base usually pays out in the short as in the long term - while trying to stick to software or tech at or beyond the end of the lifecycle usally backfires earlier or later. Python is for free. Why would one not take advantage of the performance improvements of 3.11 & 3.12? And no - we could not use Python 3.2, we are building industrial and cloud solutions, usually all of the packages involved, be it tensorflow, pandas, keras are all >=3.9 already, numpy is actually even already sticking to >=3.10.
Nobody is condemned, nobody needs to die. And most importantly...
I know a dozen professors who teach Python, mentored many students myself and be assured, no new student, at least in western europe, will get the recommendation to download Python 3.8 in year 2025 by any professor. Why should any other random "future user" who starts with Python download 3.8 if even the official Python website says end of life in big letters next to it? Anyways, potentially endless discussion and my last post in this thread. Happy new year everyone 👍 . |
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Almost the same age then. I understand your points. You're used to working in environments where you have complete control of your machine. In many places that's not the case. I've worked in universities, in corporate settings, in government institutions in US and Europe. Rarely do you have the freedom to install software on your own machine, let alone any servers. The environment is fixed and tightly controlled. You're lucky to get any python, let alone a recent version. You might have python from 5-10 years ago when one of the IT guys needed it bad enough to jump through all the compliance and security vetting hoops to get it added to the desktop / server base image. No one's updated it since. Ask the IT guys to update it and they'll laugh - they have a million other things to do and no time or interest in doing a painful compliance review just to bump a few minor versions. When you work in environments like this, yes upgrading to a new free version of python is a Big Deal. It doesn't happen. I've tried many times for more significant upgrades, it's wasted effort. So you live with what you have and do the best you can.
Only if your time is free. There's always a cost in upgrading. Usually minimal, but sometimes not.
F-strings - great. Pattern matching - meh. Type hints, just clutter imo - for automated tools, not people. Type hints make code a disaster to read. But that's me. Python documentation in general is poor at API reference. I would use f-strings. After that python is getting too cluttered. From a basic readable language to a C++ everything-and-the-kitchen-sink disaster. They keep adding operators and eventually it will read like Perl line noise. New isn't always better. There's a learning cost to adding all this new cruft. Developer time is more valuable than chasing down every new whiz-bang feature. Turing-complete is Turing-complete. Leave well enough alone. There are pain points in python I would fix. But python devs have no interest in those. Just adding new bells and whistles. That's my opinion. Not saying others should agree. Just answering your question of why anyone wouldn't want newer versions.
Ok great. That's your environment. I never said everyone should stay on 3.8. I simply want users to have the choice. 3.12 works for you. 3.8 works for me. Can't we just be friends and play nice with each other? You can have your pattern matching and type hints, and I can ignore them.
Oh what an open environment you live in. If only the whole world was this way.
Of course if you're starting from scratch, use the latest. People don't always have that luxury. BTW any job interview asking about programming language features is a joke. Programming is about how to think. Syntax is a footnote.
Because future users don't always have control of their environment.
I don't want to belabor the discussion either. But you clearly haven't understood where I'm coming from yet. Hopefully this post explains it. |
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I'm all in favor of warnings. It would be great for nicegui to output a console message that says "warning: python 3.8 is no longer being updated. consider upgrading to a supported python version." What I object to is nicegui refusing to run when python < 3.9. It's not any library's business what python version the user chooses to run. Library doesn't know the user's environment or limitations. Sometimes unsupported versions are ok. It's the user's choice to make, no one else's. Version requirements should only be for technical reasons, such as: python 3.9 introduced feature X which nicegui really needs, and there are no suitable alternatives to X in lower versions. |
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I don't believe that upgrading to 3.9 would make it so that you can't use it on 3.8... not entirely sure though. |
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It would if linter would be set for 3.9+ since the typing changes are not back compatible... |
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Description
Since python 3.8 is not actively maintained any more, would it be good idea to bump it to 3.9? I am happy to help and likely split it into two PRs, one with package and requirement update and second with liner update (which will be likely larger diff).
Update: my apologies for starting this big argument...
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